Fiscal and educational accountability is a thorn in the side of those who defend the status quo in education. They use various mediums and monuments as part of their strategies to pacify parents/taxpayers.
To the consternation of the school districts and of the school boards, people can gather accurate information from sources outside the public relations machine.
The schools, the state and federal governments have records available for review. Right to Know and Sunshine Laws provide assistance with citizen requests.
Private organizations offer even more volumes of detailed information about the school districts.
The most recent source, the National Council on Teacher Quality has a “new database giving unprecedented access into the contents of collective bargaining agreements and school board policies from the nation's 50 largest school districts”.
Selecting a few of the districts on their database offers interesting salary comparisons.
Philadelphia School District;
Top Salary: $65,322.
Chicago School District:
Top Salary: $68,261
Florida – Dade County School District:
Top Salary: $67,225
Texas – Dallas School District:
Top Salary: $64,782
Oley Valley School District:
Contract 2006-2007:
Top Salary: $74,370
Contract 2009-2010:
Top Salary: $80,070
The College Board published SAT scores by state in 2004. Iowa scored the highest mean Verbal and Math score of 1182. The average teacher salary in Iowa is $39,284.
The Oley Valley School District Verbal and Math score in 2006 was 1053. The average Oley Valley School District Teacher Salary is approximately $53,000.
Families are able to compare budgets and test performance of their district to those in the state and the nation. They have the ability to determine which system gives their children a quality education at an affordable price.
This is good news for those who want improvement and bad news for obstructionists.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Posts
373 comments:
1 – 200 of 373 Newer› Newest»OK, all you board supporters, let's get lined up to take a shot at the messenger but be sure you ignore the message.
ignore the facts is more like it!
Dr.Cappa, whats up with your income?
Good to see those high wage earners listed for Oley teachers. At least they will be able to afford the high taxes.....
I am a teacher (no, not within the Oley Valley School District, but still in Berks county) and Mr. Jacobs’ most recent display of the “facts” has me somewhat appalled for the following reasons:
1) Mr. Jacobs compares the “top salaries” of teachers in several cities, including Philadelphia, with the “top salary” in Oley’s present contract. First, I’m not sure what Mr. Jacobs is looking at when getting some of these figures, but based on my reading of some of the contracts presented by the National Council on Teacher Quality, especially that of the Philadelphia Public School System, Oley’s “top salary” is still somewhat low compared to these other districts. (Philadelphia’s contract can be found at the following address - http://www.nctq.org/contracts/7.pdf - check it out)
2) “Top salary” is just that. It is the highest amount a teacher is paid in a district. How many teachers are actually being paid this amount in any one district? Average salary would be more representative of a district’s fiscal outlay, but even this cannot be taken at face value. For instance, the older the faculty, the higher the average salary. Likewise, the more educated the faculty, the higher the average salary. Combine these factors with the size of the faculty and now you add another dimension to the formula. The point is, one arbitrary number cannot give you a clear point of comparison. To beat a somewhat dead horse, “it’s like comparing apples and oranges.”
Go to the following website and see where PA ranks according to average salary in 2004-2005 - http://www.nea.org/edstats/RankFull06b.htm. Did you see it? PA ranked 10th in the nation in terms of average salary in 2004-2005. The average was $53,258. Wait a second, that was 2004-2005. Mr. Jacobs states that Oley teachers are making an average of $53,000 in 2006-2007. Well I guess the citizens of Oley are getting a deal based on these “facts.”
3) Finally, Mr. Jacobs points out that Iowa scored the highest College Board SAT scores in 2004, but yet the average teacher salary in Iowa was $39,284. This is great, but once again refer to the previous qualifiers regarding “average” teacher salary (The following website also provides some useful information regarding Iowa teacher salaries: http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061216/NEWS02/612160349/-1/archive). Likewise, the question has to be asked, can SAT scores accurately indicate the quality of teacher performance? According to the College Board itself:
Media and others often rank states, districts and schools on the basis of SAT scores despite repeated warnings that such rankings are invalid. The SAT is a strong indicator of trends in the college-bound population, but it should never be used alone for such comparisons because demographics and other non-school factors can have a strong effect on scores. If ranked, schools and states that encourage students to apply to college may be penalized because scores tend to decline with a rise in percentage of test-takers.
Also, “State comparisons of SAT scores: Who's your test taker?,” is a very good article which analyzes some of the problems in using SAT scores as an indicator of state performance. To offer a brief synopsis from this article:
Differences among states' average SAT scores are almost entirely attributable to differences in percentage of test takers, parent education and income of the test takers, and the high school rank and GPA of the test takers rather than to the quality of states' education systems. This article includes statistical support, graphic comparisons, and recommendations concerning the reporting and interpretation of SAT scores in judging quality education ( This article can be found at the following address - http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3696/is_200110/ai_n8992234).
Nevertheless, Mr. Jacobs constantly cloaks his arguments on “behalf of the community” in the “facts.” As stated once before on this blog though, facts, depending on how they are used, can sometimes be very misleading. Mr. Jacobs uses facts in just this way. He picks and chooses those which will best serve his interests. Do a little research into the facts he presents (if he gives you the time) and you may begin to see a little bit of a different story emerge. But, then again, some people are complacent and are willing to blindly follow what sounds good to them. Those that do contradict Mr. Jacobs, regardless of what facts they present or what knowledge they have, will forever be labeled as pro-boarders, Mr. Rob Cappa, or teachers. Well, thankfully I am a teacher and I am happy that whatever wrath I incur from the "Concerned Citizens" of Oley Valley will be properly directed towards me, A TEACHER, and not towards any other hapless bystanders.
Sincerely,
A TEACHER
to A TEACHER
Sorry to see how you've perceived Mr. Jacob's information. Isn't it great that teachers of top, average, or low-man-on-the-totem-pole status earn relatively decent wages for the days that the are working, and still get nearly an entire summer to seek additional employment to add to their school teacher's wages? Many see that as a the real bonus for opting to teach as a profession. Wonderful medical benefits all year long, wages well above what other college educated people receive, and the protection of a very stong union. All for around 10 months of the year, while being paid for 12, and having the opportunity to either work another job in the summer time, or just relax. Many other hard working citizens would love having a summer OFF...even once in their entire adult lifetime.
Among the many drawbacks to teaching which many teachers are bold enough to complain about, are these:
1.You're required to teach a 5 day week...(but can take numerous "sick" days or personal days...losing nothing in your paycheck)
2. You must work with ALL types of children. (you are BLESSED to be able to help mold the future of our entire country...guiding kids that come from good homes, and giving a little something extra to kids that come from families with a bit less than others)
3. You must keep up with current educational demands, which can be accomplished by furthering YOUR education, and the faithful taxpayers are kind enough to reimburse your college expenses...all the way up to and including your doctorate. Dare I state, Poor, Poor YOU.
Get a grip. Teachers in any of the income levels are still way ahead of the incomes which most people are earning. May I mentionion, once again, that those other wage earners are working, usually, 49, 50, or 51 weeks of EACH year?
Many adults return to college to get more credits, higher degrees, yet it is only the teachers that have been able to do it FOR FREE.
Put your crying towel away, please. Nobody feels sorry for teachers. If you don't like the profession you've chosen for yourself, trade it in for something you will enjoy.
Oh, and good luck.
It seems like teachers don't like comparisons of any kind.
When is this teacher doing all of this research, during class time? Al is not twisting anything.
The “teacher” does not appear to challenge the accuracy of the data, but rather the selection of data type for review.
Her “qualifiers” for debunking the analysis rests solely on blaming others for performance rather than her profession.
It is incumbent on her to provide independent, non-partisan, measurable standards, she thinks justifies her position and compensation.
Carrying the analysis further:
SAT & Salary:
PA SAT Mean Score – 1003
Ranking by State – 44th
PA Average Salary – $53,258
Ranking by State – 10th
Iowa SAT Mean Score – 1195
Ranking by State – 1
Iowa Average Salary - $39,284
Ranking by State – 42
OVSD SAT – 1053
OVSD Average Salary - $53,00*
Pennsylvania ranks 44th in SAT scores, but ranks 10th in salaries!
We are paying too much money for poor educational results.
Achievement Tests:
State of Iowa 11th Grade Proficiency Math – 78.5%
State of Iowa 11th Grade Proficiency Reading – 76.8%
OVSD 11th Grade Proficiency Math – 49%
OVSD 11th Grade Proficiency Reading – 73%
Sources:
The College Board
PA Dept of Education
The State of Iowa
NEA
OVSD
The entire state of Iowa tests well against one small school district.
Yet we pay $53,000 average teacher salary, and Iowa pays $39,284 for their teachers.
It seems that we should be contacting Iowa and finding out what they are doing right and what we are doing wrong.
If we really want to improve, we should comparing ourselves to the best rather than comparing ourselves to other Pennsylvania floundering districts.
The excuse of “demographics” does not account for the size of these disparities.
Al's figures are CORRECT. No one can argue with that. Take his facts, item by item, reference by reference, and prove them wrong.
Additionally, one of the basic problems, as I see it, is that many teachers continue to want MORE just for the sake of having more, NOMATTER the rationale. One of my large client companies in Lancaster County just gave their employees a 2.5 to 3% raise. This is the 9th Best Pace to Work in Pennsylvania, which rankings are based on anonymous employee surveys by the PA Dept. of Commerce using the same criteria as the Forbes 100 Best Places to Work. This company's employees are always thankful -- first of all -- to have a good job. They are also happy to work in a safe, healthy, clean environment, have good health benefits, paid vacations and retirement programs.
How refreshing to see mostly manual laborers thankful for the aforementioned blessings. It would behoove Pennsylvania's (and Oley's) teachers to stop and count their blessings. Nomatter the stock market, economic climate, overall job market or health industry costs, they are living in the lap of luxury relative to most other jobs. American teachers enjoy benefits that rival all others -- they have one of the best careers IN THE WORLD.
Oley has very many fine teachers. They deserve to be respected and paid a "fair" and living wage. But, respect is EARNED and they must also respect those who work 50 weeks a year, get no Christmas and Easter extended vacations and get very few national holidays off, as teachers are priviledged to have. Can't the teachers, just once, express appreciation to those (the taxpayers) who provide such stable career conditions.
Linda...good blog, very informative and easy to read and understand.
The last part re: teachers being thankful, etc...
I'm pushing 70. I am in fairly good health. My simple wish is to hear those words from a few teachers. I'm not sure I will live long enough to hear several, or even one teacher state that they are thankful to the taxpayers for allowing them to earn those wages and enjoy the other benefits and several days off each year which others do not get to enjoy. The fact that they, themselves, are also taxpayers...is not the point. I don't see teachers voting for me to get a raise, or even some extra days off to rest up. I'm still working full time and accept overtime when it's offered. I've got to keep those teachers happy. What a TALL order.
Dear Ben, you need a break. It is very sad that you are still working. I hope you a least get a few minutes to rest everyday. LB you are correct.
That teacher likes to bash taxpayers.
Hey all you teacher bashers. You sound jealous you didn't pick teaching as your profession! Life is about choices. You made choices concerning your career and your place to live. It's a shame you are so bitter about those choices.I suggest you move to Iowa, where the grass is greener and cheaper! Yeah, I think that would be a good choice
for you.
Please B. Gone
"Those that can, do.
Those that can't, teach."
If everyone chose to be teachers, who would PAY?
Setting that last comment aside, one could view the issue clearly, if one really tried:
It's not a matter of being jealous or angry that anyone blogging on here didn't choose the teaching profession. That's not it at all. Nor is it the pay. It the combination of all these things rolled into one:
Better than average pay
shorter day than many work
clearly defined benefits which exceed what most other companies provide
dare I state, summers off?
For some, the perfect job.
For all of that, we get a bit less in return.....check out the test scores...
Don't forget tenure. Does anyone here have a guaranteed job for life?
Anonymous said...
If everyone chose to be teachers, who would PAY?
6:46 PM
Oh that's right -- teachers don't pay taxes......MORON!
Well now...happy, happy new year to you, too.
MORON, are looking at yourself in the mirror again!!
Of course teachers pay taxes. Then they spin around with their hands outstretched...to take a big chunk back.
We forgot the issue of "paid year-long sabbaticals."
I see the name callers are back on line.
Paid...year long sabbaticals....yeah, how 'bout that. Bet folks like "Ben" would not know what to do with a year off...with pay, no less.
Even people that never thought about this stuff before are wondering why the teachers, any of them, have room for complaining. Their main area of contention would be handling the "bad" types of kids. Granted, there's a few here and there. But the general idea has been touched on a few times on here, and it still holds up. If they didn't want to work with ALL types of kids, then they should not have chosen teaching as a profession. It's never too late to change. Don't like your job? Quit teaching and try getting into another profession. Perhaps you'd like to try working at BCP. You claim you're forced to handle all sorts of kids by profession. Go THERE and see how well you've educated yourself. This is where those kids end up that needed more help than the average kid. Raised by single parents, and blown off by school systems that "did what they could" and then just shoved them through the system. Perhaps a few hours working under those conditions, and your pampered school teacher's lives may not seem so tough, afterall.
"Who Would Pay?"
This concept deserves a lot of thought. We could not have a workable society if EVERYONE wanted to be a teacher or government worker. The only thing that keeps government going is non-government employers, corporations, investors, and non-government workers paying taxes which fund the system.
Pray tell, to the one who called the wise questioner a moron, how could government and government workers like school teachers survive without the majority who support the system? How would that work? Please explain.
Don't just explain that one to Linda. Explain it to all of us. Perhaps at a public school board meeting. That would fill more than 3 or 4 seats, for sure.
Is everyone going to the Prop. & Transportation
Committee meeting at 6 tonight. The contract
will be awarded for the sports complex.
I wish I could go but my child is sick with the stomach bug. Here comes the track and football complex, and maybe a pool. Hannum at his best. Spend, Spend, Spend. He is the committee chairperson for the property and trans.
The sports complex contract is still in discussion stage. You didn't miss anything.
I am glad to see that the board did not jump into any big complex YET!
Give them time. Five are running for re-election and they need feel good for votes.
5 are running for re-election? Well, that's probably good news. Which 5 do they get to boot off the board, if they win?
Oh, and are they practicing that running...on the old track?
Feel good votes indeed. The 5 that are up for re-election are Heckman,
Gotwals,Bieber,Mederia,Cappa. It would be nice to see some new faces then these 5. Heckman is on his 18 or more years. We need term limits. Cappa needs to go off and retire and stay away from the school system. He has caused enough trouble. Lets see what May brings. February is the month that you can put your name in at the courthouse for a position on our board. You might meet Dale B. at the courthouse so be prepared. Do not let him bully you into not running. He has done that before.
The school board should be required to take a competency test.
Many on here wouldn't pass it (a competancy test). :)
Or a spelling test :)
Hey Smiles or Dale B., Cappa has has words not spelled correctly on here.
Smiles are you a male or female! Tell us who you really are!
Yo! These bloggers don't exactly corner the market on poor spelling and grammar. This entire area is challenged when it comes to spelling, grammar, etc. That does not mean they are stupid, it just means that their spelling capabilities are not as strong as their ability to smell a rat. One does not have to be the spelling bee winner to acquire good, common sense. The two should never be confused. As for grammar, again, don't narrow that down to our local bloggers. Listen to the national evening news once in a while. Nearly every "man on the street" interview illustrates that THE UNITED STATES, AS A WHOLE, is on the educational freight train to Hell. Next, switch to the international news. The "man on the street" in :
GERMANY
FRANCE
ANY ISLAND
IRAQ
IRAN
ETC, ETC
At any given broadcast, you'll hear people in those, and nearly every country...speaking better English that you hear in any major US city.
So, smiley, does it make you feel superior to point out the typos and mistakes? If so, poor you. If you could stand to read past the errors on grammar and spelling, you might notice that there are several people in this neighborhood that are trying to shed light on these things:
A good education for our children
A tax rate we can afford
A board that should start each meeting by placing their hand on the Bible.
You smile for us.
We pray for you.
No matter how much you argue there is no excuse for poor grammer and bad spelling. :) :)
No argement here. There's no excuse for rude jackasses, either. Yet, we've got them. Welcome!
hey 8:11
I'm sure it was just a typo, but YOU spelled grammar wrong.
You're such a kidder!
Smile on...
Hey smiley
You want to pick on the poor spellers and those with poor grammar?
In 10 minutes, you can hear our President on TV. Odds are, he'll mispronounce a whole lot of words, and for sure...
NUCLEAR...will be on the top of the list.
His cue card should say...
NEW KLEE ER
MAYBE THAT WOULD HELP.
Another great help would be if he decided NOT to send another 20,000 troops over to that cesspool.
Thank you, school board.
Thank you, all of you who take the time to serve the public in one form or another.
Thank you, hard working teachers.
Thank you, hard working people in general.
Thank you, everyone who rises above the name calling and the process of tearing down fellow human beings.
Thank you, to all who possess more depth than that of a kiddie pool.
Peace,
The original Smiley :)
Jackass is the original smiley. Please like we do not know who you really are. What is there to smile about. We are at war in the Middle East and we are getting taxed out of our homes in the Oley Valley. So is smiley some kind of a millionare? You are the ones that are smiling. The rest of us are wondering how we can get food for our family and heat and medicine.
A soldier serves
A teacher teaches for top dollar, clearly motivated by the almighty buck. A teacher was rarely a member of the military before being a teacher.
No smiley...just facts.
It's 9:45...do you know where your school board is?
Big 'ole showdown at the OK corral???
It's easy to rise above the name calling. Just stand on the pile of lies told by our board.
Thank you, original smiley. Thank you for pointing out that there are at least TWO bozos that spout off the commy propaganda.
Roll up your pant legs, it's getting deep in smileyville.
Thank you, school board.
Thank you for raising my taxes up to the level that myself and many others are working two jobs, believe it or not.
The Campbell Soup Company thanks you, too. They are selling more soup than ever.
What next? Thank you ALPO?
I wish I could find a second job. I have not had a raise since Clinton was in office. My boss must need the money more than I do.
My oh my! Amazing how a few little reminders about civility can inspire so much wrath and hatred. By the way, I am not Jack, I am not an ass, and I am certainly not Jackass! I am still smiling, and I AM the original smiley!! Oh, such fun! ;)
Love, Peace, Joy, and Happiness,
The original Smiley!! :)
Oh, and here's one for good measure! :)
Lucky YOU...soup eater. Do you mean to tell me you're making enough to buy soup at $1.50 a can? And I suppose you have it heated? Lucky you.
A few months back, someone suggested that we may be camping out on Main Street. Don't laugh. It's closer than you think. If this happens, head towards the center of town, some guy hands out food vouchers there.
Goodnight Mr. Bites-all
"Roll up your pant legs, it's getting deep in smileyville."
Thanks, glad to hear it! I'll keep on shoveling the smiles to cover up all the _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _!
(sarcasm intended, of course!)
;)
A camp out!?! Oh boy! I love campouts
"Goodnight Mr. Bites-all"
If you're refering to me, Smiley, I'm not Mister and I don't bite.
Great fund-raiser for the football supporters:
bullsh*t shovels
get em while they're hot...
night smiley
don't forget your kneeling pad
"Please like we do not know who you really are."
Really? Please say hello to me next time you see me, because I would looooove to meet you! :)
kneeling pad? Okay, that one zoomed right over my head. Do you mean that I need to pray? I always do! :)
Combined Meeting 1/10/07 – Summary:
The budget meeting scheduled to start at 6:00 PM, did not start until 6:05 PM. The public did not get the opportunity to ask any questions until 6:50 PM. The meeting ended at 7:00 PM.
The board gave the audience ten minutes to ask questions about a $26,000,000 budget!
Twice, people asked for the documents presented to the board be given to the audience so they might follow the discussion.
This is an ongoing problem with budget meetings or for that matter all meetings. The audience always must ask for information that should be available for review during public discussions.
The business manager gave the board a list of “Big Ticket” items for them to consider. She refused to supply this list to the public. Yet, this is a public record.
The solicitor said that a Right to Know request is necessary and he will research the issue.
A speaker asked whether the new track was on the Big Ticket list. He also asked how the board planned to pay for it.
The business manager said the expenditure was not on the list, yet the board plans to vote on it in February.
The board also stonewalled questions about how they plan to pay for the track.
Refusing to provide a public record and dodging questions does not generate much trust or support for the board.
It appears they could care less.
Thanks for your report, Al. As usual, you've gone to the meeting and reported the truthful facts to bloggers unable to attend.
Al's impression of the meeting was reported without name calling. The readers can draw their own conclusions as to the characters running YOUR check book.
For many years, the taxpayers were chastised for NOT attending committee meetings, where all of the facts are discussed and the taxpayers were told they could participate and ask questions.
Based on the recent committee meetings I've attended, this is very disingenuous advice. It's just a way to shuffle sincerely interested taxpayers around without providing any answers.
It would appear the board hopes that the people paying for everything will give up and go away.
In the property and transportation meeting on Monday evening, Committee and board members complained that the Oley Water Authority is substantially raising rates and no one has any recourse. Well, my question is: How does it feel, School Board? This is the treatment concerned citizens have had for more than the decade that I've been involved. Of course, they commented about having an attorney fight the decision. One more unnecessary legal bill for the taxpayers. We must be nearing at least $100,000 in legal bills for all of the ligitation this board has us in over the past several years.
This Board needs to be replaced with one that is sensitive to those who fund the system.
You're 100% correct, LB.
Allmost funny to see the board react the way we are not supposed to react.
I may be mistaken but the way I understood the football report the $104,000 line item included costs shared by all other sports for such items as athletic trainers, field maintenance and insurance.
"I may be mistaken but the way I understood the football report the $104,000 line item included costs shared by all other sports for such items as athletic trainers, field maintenance and insurance."
Based on the descriptions in the presentation and the comments from the athletic director, he presented average figures.
He included most expenses but not others.
His study indicated the $104,000 is an average cost for a football program.
If they make the student activity fee high enough, it will cover the cost of the football program.
"If they make the student activity fee high enough, it will cover the cost of the program."
???
High enough? You'd have to be high to believe that. Or, really stupid.
The actual ADDITIONAL cost for the football program is in the range of $60-70,000 per year.This does not include extra incidental expenses like increased band uniform, equipment and transportation costs, nor did it include costs for facilities like bleachers. It was pointed out, using numbers supplied by the football boosters, that out of 36 projected players, 24 would probably be from other sports or activities and only 12 would be add ons to the total school athletic roster. A $60,000 cost to add 12 athletes is a big expense. Apparently the boosters are threatening or have arranged to have up to 5 candidates running for the school board. Some of you may get your wish for "new faces". I hope you like them.
Those that can, do.
Those that can't, teach."
6:07 PM
and those that can't do or teach, whine.
And the one with the limited vocabulary makes posts like the one above this one.
And those that enjoy fat checkbooks by way of saying "I do" could not care less about struggling families.
And there's plenty of that around...
"Some of you may get your wish for "new faces". I hope you like them."
If the board gives the taxpayers a break once in awhile, maybe they would keep their seats.
The Oley concerned citizen continually claims that teachers are overpaid, including his recent claim that they are among the highest paid in the county. I wonder how his own education level and expense, time worked, benefit to society and job difficulty compare to teachers’. Of course he will probably claim he is paid by private money and his job is therefore worth whatever he can get for it. The truth is that we all pay the bill eventually. Every dollar he gets from his employer eventually gets passed on to the rest of us and this is true for all jobs. So maybe we should evaluate and control and complain about his pay too?
Incidently, there was a recent BCIU report for 2006-2007 comparing Oley teacher salaries in this county, not with beginning teachers in Philadelphia or teachers in Somalia or Vietnam. They are paid less than comparable teachers with the same education and seniority for their first 15-20 years of work. They would require salary increases of 15-20% to catch up. After 20 years of work they are paid more, around 2% per year.
As for the often repeated claims that teachers work less than everyone else, check the accurate and excellent blog entry in the last blog series for some more information about their real number of hours. To simplify one point: if you work a 50 hour week for 40 weeks, you work as much as someone does with a 40 hour week in 50 weeks.
Those who complain about school board or sales people or bank tellers being rude and hostile should look at themselves first. If you greet people with a smile you will usually have one returned. If you repeatedly attack a group for being evil and uncaring because they don’t agree with you, then you should expect them to mirror your own attitude and not feel much like providing you with anything. I suspect that almost anyone else requesting the same information as Al and Cindy did at the last board meeting would have received it. Whether the board was strictly required to provide it or not would have been irrelevant. Sometimes you just deserve the treatment you get.
"I suspect that almost anyone else requesting the same information as Al and Cindy did at the last board meeting would have received it. Whether the board was strictly required to provide it or not would have been irrelevant."
The information requested should have been on the table outside the boardroom for the public.
There should be no need to beg for it in the first place, especially since it was discussed at the meeting.
That is of course if the board and their supporters wanted the community to know about the budget.
A district employee refusing to provide a public record is against the Right to Know and the Sunshine laws of the state.
Any responsible board member would have intervened, but they remained silent. Their inaction gave tacit approval to an action that created unnecessary legal and administrative expenses.
The withholding of a public document may be trivial to some only until they want information.
Couching criticism in political correctisms, it is interesting how board supporters hold taxpayers to one standard and the board to another, even after they are complicit in flaunting the law.
We do not and will not kiss --- to anyone. We should not even have to ask for anything when it is a public document and is supposed to be given to the people that attend the meeting. (ALL THE PEOPLE) IN THE PEANUT GALLERY. Al and Cindy have requested public documents in writing and the correct manner and you still talk trash to the messenger. You are a pathetic example for all children. Al and Cindy are concerned for all the people in this district. We have the right to know law behind us.
I talked sweet to the board many years ago(not really sweet but in a civil tone) and I still got treated like a piece of dirt. They never change and never will. We need to get rid of all of them. From the top on down. They are a disgrace of this school district and valley. 5 openings this year, step up and let us get some new faces that care about all the people and children of this district. Have a nice weekend. May the Saints be with you.
"Of course he will probably claim he is paid by private money and his job is therefore worth whatever he can get for it. The truth is that we all pay the bill eventually. Every dollar he gets from his employer eventually gets passed on to the rest of us and this is true for all jobs."
SAY WHAT?!
Wow, what school of government did you go to?
Public servants live out of the public trough that everyone else pays into, and they pay into a little bit. I, too, am self employed. My clients agree to pay me what they think I'm worth -- and have done so for the 20 years I've been in business. Furthermore, I'm only as good as the last "successful project." If I don't do my job and show successful results, I starve. What teacher can say that?
I pay in a lot and get very little in return, vs. government employees who pay in a little and get a lot in return.
"To simplify one point: if you work a 50 hour week for 40 weeks, you work as much as someone does with a 40 hour week in 50 weeks."
HUH!?
Is this post implying that teachers work 50 hours a week and aren't paid for them? I don't know any teachers who work 5 -10 hour days ... unless they also coach -- and then are paid additionally.
Explanations please?
Regarding the previous post: "Whether the board was strictly required to provide it or not would have been irrelevant. Sometimes you just deserve the treatment you get."
Ahah, I think we have some situational ethics here.
Doesn't matter. The law is the law. EVERY taxpaying individual has THE RIGHT to review public materials, discussed at a public meeting.
Simple as that!
I'm sure the Right to Know suit will prove this correct.
As to the five current board members being replaced by five from the pro-football group.
Oh please duke it out. If five from each special interest run for the open seats, then that means those groups core members (who are basically the same) will split their votes, and a taxpayer slate can just swoop right in there.
Knock yourselves sportsters. You'll all be replaced
That is...
Knock yourselves OUT, sportsters. Let's see how smart you are at this political game.
I know many teachers who work 10+ hours a day. Correcting papers, making phone calls, and creating units.
"I know many teachers who work 10+ hours a day. Correcting papers, making phone calls, and creating units."
Wow, real technical stuff. How about 12-18 hours for seven days working 2-3 jobs!
Maybe you should've gone to college
Maybe you should shut up. I did go to college and I do not care what you think of me.
10 hour days? Oh, the poor teachers. Many other professions work that much, and more, and they're not given any choice in the matter. AND they don't have a mafia type union backing them. AND they don't get a guarantee by those unions to replace the lost funds which were lost due to poor investors.
YOU WANT TO BE A TEACHER?
YOU WANT TO HAVE SUMMERS OFF?
YOU WANT TO FORCE EVERY TAX PAYING CITIZEN TO PAY INTO YOUR WAGES AND RETIREMENT CHECKS?
YOU WANT GREAT HEALTH BENEFITS AND DON'T CARE IF OTHERS ARE WORKING EQUALLY AS HARD AND GETTING NOTHING CLOSE TO YOUR HEALTHCARE BENEFITS?
YOU DON'T CARE THAT EACH AND EVERY TEACHER THAT IS WORKING UNDER THE UNION CONTRACTS ARE IN PART RESPONSIBLE FOR OLD PEOPLE DARNED NEAR STARVING TO DEATH IN ORDER TO KEEP PUTTING THEIR LIFELONG, HARD EARNED SAVINGS INTO YOUR GREEDY LITTLE BANK ACCOUNTS?
WELL, IT IS OBVIOUS.
SHAME ON YOU.
Go to college? Yet another joke. Anyone with a few extra bucks can get a degree. Ever work with people that have a degree, and wonder how on earth they got it? Anyone can study and retain the information long enough to pass the test. Applying what they've learned is something else again. Book smarts are great, as long as you're never placed into a life and death situation. In those situations, as with many other situations, give me the people with common sense and street smarts.
Statistics prove those with a college education make more $$ on average. Everyone has the choice to go or not. I paid out of my pocket, and am still paying today, but it was worth every cent
Teachers have a basketweaving degree getting paid a king's ransom.
Rest in peace, "Lucky Larry." You are on a growing list of people that were respected and will be missed. Larry Albright, Lenny Kramlich, Don Levan...the list is very long, and we hope that everyone knows that they are gone....but not forgotten.
Rest in Peace, and may God Bless.
Maybe they are Longaberger baskets!
Hopefully they treated Lucky Larry better than the way they treated Don Levan. But it's a good lesson. Just because the person has passed away, does not mean the people that tried so hard to hurt them have been forgotten.
Well, that could explain why my son's Spanish teacher could not carry on a decent conversation with people FROM SPAIN.
Doc, stop coming around the classrooms during school hours. The kids are trying to learn.
Did the board have a moment of silence for Don Levan? Don't think so.
oc citizen said "A district employee refusing to provide a public record is against the Right to Know and the Sunshine laws of the state."
That's true! There was, as explained, no public document involved so once again we have a true but totally irrelevent statement which leads to no real conclusion, especially not the one you would like.
anon said "I talked sweet to the board many years ago(not really sweet but in a civil tone) and I still got treated like a piece of dirt. They never change"
That may be true although probably is not. Of course the board has changed several times in "many years". The logical conclusion if what you say is true is that once someone gets on the board they all automatically become cruel and nasty and rotten. Or is it that only people like that care enough to run and then put in the required time and effort? Or is it that you're full of petunias or can't reason?
anon said: "10 hour days? Oh, the poor teachers. Many other professions work that much, and more, and they're not given any choice in the matter."
Which professions are those?
3:33PM said
'HUH!?
Is this post implying that teachers work 50 hours a week and aren't paid for them? I don't know any teachers who work 5 -10 hour days ... unless they also coach -- and then are paid additionally.
Explanations please? "
No, they are not "not getting paid".They are working on average 50 hrs, during and after school, for 40 weeks (approximately) for the same total # of hours as many or most other people. So they are getting the same or more or less pay than others for working the same # of hours.The pay is determined by many factors most of which don't make much sense. But you are not complaining about that. You are complaining specifically about teachers for reasons probably unknown to yourself. That is why no amount of explanation will help you to understand. I suspect you don't know any teachers or what they actually do.
5:18 PM said
"Wow, real technical stuff. How about 12-18 hours for seven days working 2-3 jobs!"
Did that, working one job- it was almost a killer. I hope with the minimum wage going up you get some relief, if that applies. If you're starting a business, God help you. However, your situation is not the result of teachers not being in the same horrible situation. Nor is the loss of health benefits by many other workers the result of teachers still having them. The only cause and effect is that you got screwed and are envious of those who didn't, yet.
Congratulations to the teacher who is responsible for the fifth reply on this blog, for her/his reasoned and irrefutable debunking of Al's "facts". What is equally remarkable is that it was done without the usual enjoyable but distracting dissing so dearly loved by the rest of us. Well done, and please return for a future bout.
“That's true! There was, as explained, no public document involved”
Not according to the laws of Pennsylvania....
Just because a district employee proclaims a public document does not exist even though she just handed it out to board members at a public meeting, does not mean it is not a public document or that it does not exist.
Obstructionism is not an exemption to the Right to Know or the Sunshine laws.
“so once again we have a true but totally irrelevant statement which leads to no real conclusion, especially not the one you would like.”
This is nothing more than hyperbole based on an erroneous, arm-chair parsing of the law.
“Congratulations to the teacher who is responsible for the fifth reply on this blog, for her/his reasoned and irrefutable debunking of Al's "facts".
If you and the teacher have a problem with the facts then both of you should contact the Oley Valley School District, the State of Iowa, the College Board, and the Pennsylvania Department of Education.
So far, she has not returned with facts of her own. That should speak volumes....to most.
The problem she faces is that the federal and state government heard all her excuses why education is not performing.
Educators with better credentials and experience decided she needs motivation to do a better job and to justify her compensation.
So, they instituted academic standards for her to meet. If she does not, then there will be penalties.
People will lose their jobs and school boards will be replaced.
They call this accountability and it is long overdue.
Yes that is correct Al, we are way overdue for accountability. That is what we been wanting for years but Oley School Board and Administration think they are above the law. Well pals you are not.
Hello is Heckman, Richard, Zackon new is this school system? I do not think so. They have been on this board for many years and Zackon has been the SUPER for years. They have been the ones besides the new board members that have treated the public with disgrace. Talk nice or not they do not like us asking questions and have to be accountable for their own voting record. So stick it.
...the truth is often a hard pill to swallow...
“So far, she has not returned with facts of her own. That should speak volumes....to most.”
Why would anyone continue an argument which they know they will never win? People refute the so-called facts on here all the time with facts of their own only to be told they are wrong and that Al’s facts are the only ones that are correct. No one ever really addressed the facts presented by the teacher. Instead, other unrelated information was used in refutation or new “facts” were found which pose the same problems addressed by the teacher in her post. Simply stated, the OCC never makes mistakes and, goodness forbid, is never, ever, ever wrong. So yes, I guess Al's correct, the teacher’s lack of a response does speak volumes.
Some of your contributors including The OLEY CONCERNED CITIZENS, himself, are big fans of standardized testing as an indicator of learning and of teacher ability. What they miss are the details and the hard questions. For example, when comparing different states like Idaho and Pa, they forget that the tests are different. Texas and Kansas supposedly have already achieved 100% and 98% proficiency on their own tests. How Marvelous! Or is their test so easy that we all could pass it. A different example: the governor of Hawaii had her senior policy advisors take her state’s 5th grade math test. They failed. Would any of you like to take the 11th grade test, or have your president or the legislators who require it, take it? Would you bet on anyone passing? If you don’t pass, does it mean you’re a failure and not fit to work? Of course not, it’s your TEACHERS’ fault, right? Or is it over reliance on tests that don’t test the right stuff because we still don’t quite know what that is or how to test for it?
oley citizen said "This is nothing more than hyperbole based on an erroneous, arm-chair parsing of the law."
Has he been taking vocabulary courses to keep up with his detractors? Will he be condemned by his fervent followers for not including a definition with his BIG words? Did he misuse at least one of them which more accurately applies to most of what he writes?
PA standards are low and weak to begin with. How come you can say that only 50% of the children in 11th grade at Oley need to know the basics and the rest of them who cares. We have a small school district with big salaries. Teach for goodness sake and stop crying about the pssa tests. It is about time we finally can get accountability. If the kids fail you failed as a teacher. We should at least be getting 80% or higher of these tests. We have coaches that were hired to help the kids, we have more than enough aides and teachers to get these kids to the right level. They are our future and you and this district are failing them. Just wait 5 years from now or even sooner for the way this world will be with our children trying to survive and make a living. It is very hard now.JUST YOU WAIT!!
LOOK IN A DICTIONARY IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND AL'S WORDS! That is right Al is smarter than any of you. You just cannot stand that we want accountability. We had the big ticket items page given to us in the past, Mr. Moser and the past Business Managers all approx.8 of them always had Janet make copies and hand them out. This new BM is wrong. She has to supply the public with public documents. They should be available at the table as you walk into the hot dungeon. They sure do try to make you feel of a lower form when you enter. They try to stuff you out. I have had to open the windows in the past. They could care less about the public.
Although BIG words don't impress very many people, lies don't impress many people, either.
Al Jacobs is prepared to back up his statements, as the facts come directly from the school board. I fail to see how that could possibly confuse people.
As for the board members starting out nice and then turning into nasty people?....That's probably not how things actually go. While chatting with the potential board members, they were all VERY polite, pleasant, and were freely stating how they see things which need to be addressed and changed within the jurisdiction which is our board. Yet once they were elected, their own views were fading away from the topics discussed, and the obvious occurred:
Well meaning potential board members were elected and began to serve on the board. In no time at all, the BIG GUNS stressed to them what THEY feel is the best way to do things. They are pressured to go along with the crowd, which is not exclusive to Oley. Or to this level of government. We live in a crooked town, which is in a crooked township, within a Commonwealth run by the ultimate crook. You must know we're in trouble when our governor's nickname is "Fast Eddie."
None of us will live long enough to change any of this. The best we can hope for here, in little old Oley, is to keep a close eye on our current board, and let them know that we will not be happy until the word REFERENDUM actually MEANS SOMETHING.
Sorry board members, but this is true. Outside of your own families, nobody trusts you. Get used to it, and if you can't handle this, don't run again. You want to change the image you're stuck with? Then learn to stand on your own two feet, and don't vote for things you know are WRONG. Board members like LB and RUSS are few and far between. They've left their positions on the board, AND STILL CARE.
What a nice turn out for Larry today.
"irrelevent statement"
Mr. 10:40 PM , know-it-all, anti-taxpayer,occ-basher better learn how to spell before he gives any lectures.
Even if his or her spelling was correct, his content is still laughable, at best. They are coming out of the woodwork now.
A moment of silence for Larry at the board meeting was very nice, but what about the nice man Don Levan on his death bed gets a nasty letter delivered to him from a so called Doc. That was terrible. I hope no one ever forgets these nice men from this valley, there are not many that I have met. I am glad I knew these fine gentlemen.
But Lucky Larry was a system feeder! Didn't he drive bus? I'm surprised that you don't attack him too! Even worse, he drove athletic teams ....
Here's a tip for you, 8:52 blogger:
Let Larry---and his family---rest in peace. You're reaching a new low for trying to start a blogging riot.
Oh, and please note:
THE REST OF THE COUNTRY DOES NOT
"DRIVE BUS"
THEY DRIVE "A" BUS.
THEY MAY ALSO RIDE "A" BIKE
OR DRIVE "A" TRUCK
Welcome to the 21st century.
p.s. Many local churches offer help to those that don't know how to grieve. Sign up, attend often.
Does anyone have a copy of that letter which was sent to the man dying of cancer? If my memory serves me correctly, I believe the content had to do with a board member accusing the elderly gentleman of "whining" about his taxes. An elderly gentelman that was born and raised right here in the Oley Valley, and paid taxes here his entire life. A person that lived here long, long before the author of the pathetic letter which was sent to that dying man. It would seem as though we could only learn from a mistake like the one that was made by the person who felt it was justified to think of, write, and mail that sort of letter to a person of any age, dying of cancer. Let alone a very old man.
Yes a current board member wrote that terrible letter to Don Levan. He thinks he is above the law and has zero feelings for anyone never mind a dying man that tried to keep this board held accountable and fiscally responsible. OH NO another concerned citizen! This cannot be! Rest in peace Don and Larry and Lenny. Fine men from the valley.
A person only needs to see ONE person dying of cancer to understand the devastation it causes both the victim and their family. God only knows why any sane person would go out of their way to hurt someone in that postion. I guess the key word there is...sane.
A person that worked as a doctor must have seen volumes of cancer cases. Seeing them is one thing, acknowledging their fear and pain is something else, I guess.
There's no guesswork involved there. Anyone showing disrespect to the dying, gets no respect from any decent person.
Move on! If everyone lived by the philosophy of "an eye for an eye" the whole world would be blind. Let go of the grudge and rise above it.
If the board was honest and truthful then we would not have this blog. They are the ones that started this mess. The taxpayers have a right to know what is going on with their money and the education of their children, grandchildren, neighbors children and children they do not even know. We have rights that you do not like. Get over it yourself. Move over is more like it. Move out board members and let the real concern people take over for the next 4 years.
The board is worthless.
The board is worthless.
Zackon and the admin. want high pssa scores so the state leaves them alone to carry on the way they have for years! The time has come for accountability and honesty. It is funny how hallways get blocked during pssa testing but when the kids are taking mid-terms and finals anyone can walk the halls and talk and distract the children. Those grades are for the children to get into college but all the school cares about is the pssa scores looking good for the state.
Grudge? That's an interesting term to apply to that particular situation. Suppose that was YOUR father, grandfather, or brother. What then? You're supposed to turn the other cheek? Sooner or later, we run out of cheeks.
Speaking of testing...
Who tests our board members? Who makes sure they are not a few sandwiches short of a picnic?
My neighbor told be about this blog. I've just read several posts. Wow, now I know why we sent our children to private school.
Sad that a small district like Oley would have many children of the district looking for other options for education. I am sure glad we have options today. We do not have to be stuck with the status quo. Spend,spend,spend and take care of their own and the heck with the rest of the children. That is the mind set of this board and administration.
Who stole our For Sale By Owner Flyers?
Must have been the same fine group that messed with another bloggers snowman at Christmas.
Thievery is nothing new in the district. Neither is trespassing. Teachers not only allowed, but encouraged their students to trespass on private properties and remove "act 50" signs. Our caring teachers sure have a strange way of guiding their students...WHICH ARE OUR CHILDREN...how to trespass, steal, and disrespect the opinions and property of others. We, as parents, were betrayed with that very act. Many are under the impression that our children are being taught ALL THE RIGHT STUFF! Well, once again, we were disappointed.
Before any bloggers state that this "issue" should be dropped and we should get over it.....think twice. The matter was never addressed by the board. Just like every other controversy. Stories like the above are commonplace in third world countries. That's not exactly what our taxpayers were striving for, and won't happen again withough media attention.
Students off today, but the teachers must work? Wow, I hope the Red Cross is there to provide Koolaid and Twinkies to those in need.
"Teachers not only allowed, but encouraged their students to trespass on private properties and remove "act 50" signs."
You can't prove that allegation! NONSENSE!
You're right, I can't. But the eye witnesses can. Would you like to tell them it was nonsense?
Yea and I saw Elvis and Santa at the Legion Diner Bwuahahahaha...would you like to tell them they weren't there!
No that is funny stuff!
Your funny and a joke. We saw the act 50 signs being taken down and we know who did it. Just like we know who messed around at a concern citizens house this past christmas and left a dumb note on the snowman. Also we know who took down someones mailbox a few times. We got your number. It would be wise to shut up.
"It would be wise to shut up."
Advice you may want to follow as well!
hey 3:23
"...thank you very muchhhhhh...."
You're some comedian. Over the years, There's probably been 1,000s of Elvis look-a-likes in there. Same with Santa. But your jokes are only funny because you're kidding. And there's nothing wrong with a little chuckle here and there.
However, the posts about teachers prompting their students to trespass AND remove (steal) Act 50 signs from private property... is no joke. That's some message those teachers were sending to the formerly innocent students.
As for trespassing and damaging Christmas decorations, mail boxes, etc...."shut up" is not going to cut it. Most of us may be pinching pennies to cover high tax bills, but not one taxpayer has to go without police protection. In addition, surveillance equipment is available at many retailers. For those that are not aware of this, Sam's Club offers a complete electronic system which not only sounds an alarm inside your home, but also shows activity on closed circuit TV, tapes it, AND notifies the authorities. Under $100.
Don't know one concerned citizen who vandalized or stole anyones' private property, and none have even been accused of such actions. So, who are the honest people in this debate. Once again, the facts speak for themselves
"So, who are the honest people in this debate."
Debate?!? On this blog?!? It's more like a spectacle!
Oley Valley School District Profile
2003-2004
We will provide the opportunity and the environment for our students to acquire:
Social Responsibility:
respect for others
responsibility for actions
volunteer community service
respect for the environment
The above message is taken from the back page of a pamphlet written and distributed by our school.
It is interesting that the school proclaims they will make these life skills known to our students. It would be a kind and considerate act to present the BOARD with all of this information. They already know about volunteering community service, they should be aware of needing to respect the environment, but the first two on the list need to be addressed.
RESPECT FOR OTHERS
AND
RESPONSIBILITY FOR ACTIONS
IF IT'S IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO TEACH OUR STUDENTS, OUR BOARD SHOULD ADHERE TO THE SAME RULES.
In Response To:
"Anonymous said...
....
Debate?!? On this blog?!? It's more like a spectacle!
9:26 PM"
Well, some of us are trying to keep this a debate, but posts like the above make it very difficult. See, instead of countering with known facts about the issue that was being discussed (those who steal signs and deface property vs. those who DON'T), all that person could do was demean the blog.
Buy your pom-poms early, reserve your seat in the new bleachers and hold onto your wallet because football will be coming to Oley tomorrow night. Rah Rah Rah!!
"Respect for others
and
responsibility for actions..."
What's good for the goose!
They claim to teach this to the students.
All we're asking for is the board and administration to follow the same rules. What's so bad about that?
The so called human that stole the act 50 signs and most likely put a stupid note of a snowman and are now taking 4 sale by owner pamphlets was confronted already in the past. What they do not understand is that one day they will be caught red handed. For under $100 for security it may be time to start purchasing closed circuit TV's. Also the meeting tomorrow is for the special interest groups to get what they want. Football and track have NOTHING to do with education and they are not mandated by the state of PA. Come one and all to see the circus. Free admission, bring your rolaids. This is the only free thing you will receive.
You can come tomorrow night and watch grownups throw temper tantrums until they get their football program. Gimmee gimmee gimmee I want I want I want!!! That's the new slogan of the Oley Valley Football Association.
It will be great to see the local talent make a fuss over non-educational expenses.
All the chatter about an expensive, new track...
Then all the jibberish about adding football to our overextended budget...
What next? BULL RIDING? Why not? The Sewing class can stitch up the costumes, and the metal shop can whip up some fancy awards. Aspiring doctors and nurses can get first hand experience with various injuries, and we already have the clowns.
It would be good for many just plain old taxpayers, who never ask for anything, to
show up and watch the Board vote us into
further debt.
Lt's face it, we already know the outcome. All the special interests are lined up like the lobbyists in Washington. We little people don't have a chance. But, at the very least, let's make them look us in the eye, as they vote to squander our tax dollars meant for education to buy votes in the primaries. Shame on the board!
"and we already have the clowns."
Yes, we certainly do! ...and we know where to find them, too!
...You'll be sure to find them...the same old 4 or 5 people spending hours in front of their computer screens, bashing away!
shame, shame, shame. That's what it's all about, isn't it?!? Good 'ol Dutchmen!
C'mon football people! Breathe some new life into this stick-in-the-mud town! We need you!
You are on the computer reading the countless hours of facts that are being presented on this blog. You should talk. You just sit and attack the messenger. Hey tell us facts of your own about this district that you might have. Oh thats right you know we are right as our facts are coming right from the horses mouth and the districts documents. See I told you there is nothing you can say any different than our facts so you just sit at your computer and attack the concern citizens. Shame,shame,shame. Seeeeeeee you soooon. The circus is coming tomorrow night 6pm for the budget and 7pm for the main event. Sleep tight do not let the bed bugs bite.
The comment at 9:36pm makes me sick. You are a self-centered, selfish person. As long as you think you can afford higher taxes then that's all that matters. Any and all new spending is OK with you. Never mind those who will not be able to afford the tax increases, let them sell out and leave, right? I just wonder how you and the rest of your group can sleep at night.
Why do the groups...like football fans or track fans....find time to show up for wanted sports items, but when educational matters are discussed, there's the same tiny handful of folks present at board meetings?
It's clear that "play" comes first in too many families.
Yes, it does seem the "Play" comes first.
How pitiful that the District is proud of the "Adequate Progress" PSSA test results, to the point of placing signs in the various buildings. Good grief! Who ever heard of bragging about mediocre?
looks like weeu is pushing the oley football story as hard as they can. must be very profitable.
My neighbor tells me that field hockey and soccer may lose the use of their playing fields if the district starts football. Is this true? What will happen to those teams?
Your neighbor is incorrect.
LB right on. Pretty sad for sure!
How do you know "I'm" not the neighbor? I had heard the same thing.
There are only so many fields. One sport will have to at least share the field.
There's no room for football at Oley...oh yea, we live in the middle of nowhere...there's plenty of room...Whahaha
"Adequate Progress" is most definitely a title in which Oley Valley teachers and students should feel pride! Have you ever seen a PSSA test? The standards for "adequate progress" are quite high! I have seen numerous PSSA tests, and I am amazed that students are able to score as highly as they do! I doubt that those of you who attended school 30 years ago would be able to achieve such scores - not because you are incapable, but because our level of expectations has risen dramatically in the past decade. Students are learning material and concepts that they were never exposed to in the past. Yes, there are students who do not meet the standards, but there are plenty who do!
We're all waiting to hear how last night's meeting went.....
Wow what a meeting last night. Action packed. Read the paper. People yelling they are going to vote the board out in May. Football parents and children very mad. The football program was tabled by the board. The track was not voted on either. It was not boring at all. They did not stuff us out. Next month however we will see. Time will tell. The new laws in PA regarding spending are working. The board now has to think twice before they say YES!
Flag on the Play! Unsportsman-like conduct!
"...Flag on the Play! Unsportsman-like conduct!..."
That is an understatement. For someone to tell parents/taxpayer's and fellow Oley Valley residents that they should put their children up for adoption at a public meeting is a complete disgrace.
"People yelling they are going to vote the board out in May. Football parents and children very mad."
My, my didn't some pro-boarder lecture OCC about their behavior?
From what I read in the paper, the football group are rude and bullies. They are sending the wrong message to the children.
What a joke. One soccer father complained that his child is bullied and it gets characterized as a fact. My elementary son and daughter play soccer and no one has ever bullied them.
It is a sad that one undocumented incident would be taken seriously. What that father should be asked is what did he do about it prior to the meeting. Did he do the right thing and address it with the other parents, which is the appropriate thing to do, was the bus driver made aware of the situation and was the proincipal told.
Of course none of that was asked. And if so, was the situation corrected.
Looks like nothing will ever change in Oley. If you can't get what you want by reasonable measures, then you throw a fit, show up in great numbers, and scream at the board. Funny, we're fighting a war in Iraq, and THEY are reacting the same way.
Go OLEY Go. Back to the drawing board.....
Can someone explain how girls volleyball got an automatic pass without public scutiny. If I heard correctly last night, it was stated that the $ for that program was inserted in the budget, even though that amount over two years is more than what was needed from the school for football ($7,000/year for 7 girls to play volleyball)?
He was saying that why should the taxpayers have to pay for babysitting services after school meaning football. If they cannot take care of their children maybe you should put them up for adoption. Maybe that was not the right wording but when you have been fighting the system to stay above the water and keep your home from being taken away due to high taxes you say things you might normally not say. Give the old man a break. He can hardly breath and walk. He should be enjoying his later years not dealing with this circus of a school system.
This meeting could of been alot more civil if the board had said they will put the football program on the ballot for the voters to vote on it in May along with the track. The people in this district live to see this kind of rude behavior. Dr. Cappa should of kept his comments to himself. The football people know he does not want football. He had addressed this in the past at other board meetings. He always likes to get the last word in. This meeting was as nasty as others I have witnessed. I am glad I was not attacked like usual. We need to put any big ticket item on the ballot and let the public vote. This district has a habit of wasting tons of money of legal issues that could be resolved without lawyers and fees.
Once the vote was tabled, Dr. Cappa legally was not allowed to speak about the issued that was tabled. But like always this board has their own rules and break laws all the time. Mr. Heckman told Dr. Cappa he could not speak. Dr. Cappa said he had to say what was on his mind and paper. So Mr. Heckman allowed him to speak.
Very sad, to hear all of this. A bunch of adults acting like spoiled brats and teaching their children their tactics.
It is surprising to me that, originally, the insurance for football players was a non-issue, now they are offering to have the football participants pay their own. How long would that last? Also, the start up funds are only for the first two years. Afterwards, once again, the poor taxpayers who've never had kids in the District continue to be coerced into paying to fulfill everyone else's dreams. When will it stop?
As to the cost of Volley Ball vs. Football. Oh, Puulleeaassee. $7,000 is a far cry from $104,000 a year. Plus, we already have the necessary indoor facilities and equipment for Volley Ball.
To who said: "What a joke. One soccer father complained that his child is bullied and it gets characterized as a fact. My elementary son and daughter play soccer and no one has ever bullied them. "
Bullying is a big issue today. It's horrible what kids do to kids and no one corrects them. Maybe you are lucky your kids are in the "in" group so aren't treated that way. Have a heart for someone who's worried about his kid.
LB you missed a good one. Oley at it's best. It really was a sad event. The football people had a good feeling the board was going to vote on this, then surprise,surprise Barb Bieber votes to table it. This whole meeting was a circus. They need to put any big ticket item up for the people to vote on in May. Thats it.If it does not get passed OH WELL! We need to get back to the basics of education. Oscar was right last night. God Bless.
"Bullying is a big issue today. It's horrible what kids do to kids and no one corrects them. Maybe you are lucky your kids are in the "in" group so aren't treated that way. Have a heart for someone who's worried about his kid."
Get a grip! Bullying is no different today than it was 50 years ago. Lets face it, the people of Oley are not known for the positive attitude. It has been like this forever. If a child gets upset because he is being bullied, teach him to stand up for himself.
As for lb's comments. I usually agree with your writings, but this time I believe you have the facts all wrong. $104,000 is not an accurate number listed by any school, nor is it an accurate average. The only way to properlyevaluate any activities at the school, whether the track team, field hockey team, band, FBLA, etc. is to evaluate the cost per number of players.
Therefore, the volleyball team is expensive versus a football team, even if using exaggerated numbers such as the $104,000.
volleyball at the MS. We have the uniforms from the old HS ones. We have all the equipment at the MS. When the building was built they got all the equipment. We need to have a MS program to start getting competitive at the HS level. The costs is way cheeper than football.
"...The costs is way cheeper than football..."
Why do they requestneed $7,000+ for an activity that will attract no more than 10 girls, yet football at the Junior High level is requesting no more than $12,000 over two years, which approximately 30+ boys will participate. To me it sounds like girls volleyball is an expensive proposition in comparison to junior high football.
I hope to continue this discussion provided we stay civil as we have to this point.
Whether it's being spent on 7 players or 77, $104,000 is still $104,000 out of the budget. I don't believe Linda was exaggerating that figure. $12,000 over two years just doesn't sound realistic. Listing some of the items that will need funding one can come up with what looks like a six figure amount.
Equipment, uniforms, coach's and assistant coach's salaries, facilities such as new bleachers, lights (sooner or later), new training equipment. Add to that transportation costs, another cheerleader coach. That is for the "pilot" Middle School program. The costs go up when the High School program is added. The high school coach salaries will be much higher and the equipment more expensive.
I disagree that the public should vote for or against football in a referendum. The board was elected to make these decisions and be held accountable on election day. I don't know whether the majority of residents and taxpayers want football or not. I certainly would not conclude they do based on 100 people orchestrated to show up at a school board meeting in support of it.
I agree with Rob Cappa. If football is approved the cost of operating it needs to be offset by cutting somewhere else. Hopefully, this issue will work itself out and not further divide the community.
Russ, we missed you! Welcome back. Happy New Year.
Many will agree with Rob Cappa, and Russ. The money can only be stretched so far. Who ever heard of initiating a sport, such as football, and having it cost LESS than anticipated? IT ALWAYS COSTS MORE! To believe otherwise is both foolish and delusional.
Hello to say we agree with Rob Cappa is amazing. What he said was correct that we would have to take a program away to pay for football. The way he said it and the time he said his speech, that is another story. The board is finally feeling the heat to use the taxpayers money for education FIRST. The track on the other hand is not a dead issue. Dr. Zackon wants this track bad. I can see it in his face. He even went over to the track coaches at the meeting to talk to them.
Our money will still be used for big ticket items.
Every so often, our board also considers spending our tax dollars on basic education.
2006 Berks County Football Program Costs
Net Figures:
Conrad Weiser - $100,508
Daniel Boone – $124,063
Fleetwood - $123,645
Governor Mifflin - $165,572
Hamburg - $74,311
Holy Name - $ 62,200
Kutztown - $65,242
Schuylkill Valley - $102,829
Wyomissing - $122,210
Average = $104,508
Source: OVSD
Are those figures for Middle School programs, High School programs or both? How much are revenues generated by the programs going to help defray the overall costs? Will the Football Association continue to help fund the program five or six years from now and at what percentage? Just a couple random questions...
That is a very interesting editorial in this morning's Reading Eagle concerning artificial turf on high school fields. Any thoughts?
Pop and I just got back from a quick trip to town. It looks like an awful lot of school busses are bring kids home early. We sure hope nothing is wrong in the school.
Hello the elem. teachers get a half a day every quarter to get the report cards finished to hand out next week. That is why you are seeing the buses early. Russ, ask Dr. Zackon what he thinks of the turf thing. I heard he is all for the whole package. 8 lane track, artificial turf, etc. Also his step-son was at the meeting on Wednesday with the football families. I heard he is quite involved in the football program. I have a feeling that the track and the whole deal is going to get done this year and football will be right behind it. I know of 2 people running in May that are pro-football.
Never boring in this neck of the woods!!!
"...Are those figures for Middle School programs, High School programs or both? ...:
I can't answer all the questions, but the amounts listed by some of the schools include 2 Jr High and 2 JV teams as well as a varsity team.
What good is any of that information if it's not exactly what Oley will plan or need to spend? Or, something really close to it? Al's figures are the ones obtained by the OVSD. Where did blogger 10:12 get their information?
It would be good for many just plain old taxpayers, who never ask for anything, to
show up and watch the Board vote us into
further debt.
Lt's face it, we already know the outcome. All the special interests are lined up like the lobbyists in Washington. We little people don't have a chance. But, at the very least, let's make them look us in the eye, as they vote to squander our tax dollars meant for education to buy votes in the primaries. Shame on the board!
9:24 PM
Yu're right, you should show up so you'll have a clue before you run on and on. They didn't pass the football request and it doesn't look like they will, so where do your accusations leave you, except with your foot in your mouth?
2:18 PM
Once the vote was tabled, Dr. Cappa legally was not allowed to speak about the issued that was tabled. But like always this board has their own rules and break laws all the time. Mr. Heckman told Dr. Cappa he could not speak. Dr. Cappa said he had to say what was on his mind and paper. So Mr. Heckman allowed him to speak.
What actually happened was that Dr C asked to speak and Mr. Heckman allowed it, which is his prerogative. He may have known something that you don't such as Dr C will miss the next meeting and wanted his opinion on the record for the football supporters so that they didn't give him false credit for supporting them.
Actually, the Football and Sports Center have ONLY been tabled. Perhaps they need to see how ACT 1 will effect the ability of the District to legally tax us to pay for them.
It's not a done deal. We will all wait and see
Isn't it great living in a communist country? The big wigs make all of the decisions for us, as if we had no brain and no right to know what they have up their sleeves. I agree with the former blogger. The everyday taxpayers need to go to these meetings, even ONE of the meetings, and see first hand how the issues are skirted and the common taxpayer is nothing more than a checkbook and a pen.
False credit are you for real? Dr. Cappa was told he cannot speak because the issue was tabled and once it is table you cannot discuss it anymore. But as always Mr. Heckman after saying he could not speak let him speak anyway. You do not know what you are talking about. I just was sitting about 5 feet from Dr. C as you call him. I did not say I do not agree that you would have to cut programs for football, which is what he said. He just said a whole bunch of other stuff to get the people more angry which was terrible. The place was turned into a circus AGAIN. Dr. C. must feel good being the last one to have his 2 minutes of fame.
Meetings like the one we witnessed last Wednesday can take years off your life. When you have a good feeling things will go one way and then zap things changed a totally different way. This board gets great joy of causing pain on others they do it all the time. Tabled this football program does not mean it is dead in the woods, just that the board wants to continue these kind of circus meetings. Stay tuned for more action in the next few months. Never dull in the Valley.
February meetings are very important as the board has to vote on next years budget. Every Board Member should be at the meetings. This board was just praised for all the time that they have put into this district. They even got gifts. So now show up members and do what is right for all the public of this district, children and all.
Post a Comment